Multi-Family Deal Lab Episode 003

Speaker 1: Welcome to the multifamily deal lab podcast, where we dissect a deal before your eyes and ears. So you can discover the strategies and tactics that got each deal to the finish line strategies and tactics that you can put in your own toolbox to get you to the closing table from sourcing the deal, raising due diligence to the property takeover, multifamily deal lab shows how you too can get the deal done. And now here’s your host. David Lindahl

Speaker 2: Multifamily deal that up. I’m Dave Lindahl I’m with Mike Flaherty. There’s a reason I asked Mike to be on this call because it was after the last downturn in 2008, it was almost like the same thing in a moment’s notice. Everything was wiped out. Lehman brothers went down financial crisis and the whole world changed in an instant. It wasn’t anything that anybody could predict. And it was much like this pandemic, you know, all of a sudden, you know, everything changed and now we have to figure out what to do next. So coming out of that, Mike started learning about how to invest in apartments, owned a contract. I’ll let him tell the story, but he owned a contracting company before then. and then like everybody else had difficult time through the downturn and then had to try to reinvent himself and he reinvented himself through apartments.

Speaker 2: so I’m bringing Mike on to share his story with everybody that’s listening so that you know that on the backside of this, there’s a huge opportunity. If some of you or one or two or many of you out there listening right now will be the person that I have on after the next crisis, because there will be another crisis after this. So before we get started, Mike, how’s it going I haven’t seen you since a day. How are you doing How’s a quarantine in Boston. It’s a, it’s not lonely. Cause you know, I got a couple of kids. So, other than that, it, yeah, it’s crazy. It’s actually crazy. You know, I want a couple of different businesses trying to keep the businesses running. We got the apartments that we’re trying to keep running, you know, get the, get to the home life.

Speaker 2: And it’s not like, I get laid off and I’m hanging out at home reading the greatest novels and watching Netflix, one of my friends, I said, Hey, how’s it going You know, how you been He goes, Oh my God. He says, I’m caught up with every next Netflix show. I’m like, Oh, I wish I wish that was me. You need to get your kids going on Disney plus now. Yeah. So what are you doing How are you doing How is your, how’s your isolation going Doing good. I’m here in Northern California with, my wife three little girls, 10, eight, and five. And and my nine, nine month old, puppies. So we’re doing good. And like you I’ve been as busy as ever just staying on top of our, our properties and you know, everyone, since I, since I joined Dave, I’ve bought and sold, it’s fluctuated anywhere between 50 506,000 units, I think right now we have about 5,400 units because we sold a couple deals over the last six months. Hmm. It’s been a busy, it’s been,

Speaker 3: It’s really busy time between being on, you know, nonstop phone calls with lenders.

Speaker 2: So hold on, before we jump into the business, in terms of the quarantine isolation and all that, are you being strict about it or you’re not going anywhere and if you do, you, you know, it’s just for essential. So what’s your philosophy on that

Speaker 3: I, I give in a little bit, when I walked the dog in the morning, I go to the local gas station to get a cup of coffee. But, other than that, we’ve been pretty strict with it. My wife picked up some custom masks for all of us yesterday. Mine’s pretty cool. I’ve got Scooby doo online. So we’re, we’re looking fit and fashionable.

Speaker 2: Do you put them one I was crazy in February when I pay $200 for, eight. and, and 95 mass, like what are you crazy I’m like, yeah, well, you’ll see. I know what’s coming

Speaker 3: As well. We were, we were supposed to be on a Disney cruise this week for my kid’s spring break. Obviously that didn’t happen. But yeah, we’ve been pretty strict with it. You know, we, we live on a golf course here. Initially they, when they shut that down, it was like grand central park behind us. And now they even have police out there and they’re monitoring that and you can’t walk your dog out there. You can’t play golf. They’re just, you know, everyone in my neighborhood is, is being pretty strict with it.

Speaker 2: So yeah, that’s just, that’s the smart way to go. You know, there’s a silent killer out there and it doesn’t discriminate. It looks for opportunity. And you know, you just don’t want to be that opportunity. I got a big note on my door, but that previously, when I was having, I don’t have anybody over now, even on Easter, my mother, you know, my parents, my mother, she takes it a little too, too little a Alexa days ago, let’s use a, you know, she’s like, Oh, you know, we’re going to Tammy’s for Easter. I was like, what are you going to Tammy’s for Easter for, you know, it’s why are you going out of your house She said, well, you know, I’ve made some stuff, shrimp, I’m going to drop it off at your door. Cause she knows I’ll let anybody in. I was like, wow. You know, it’s just

Speaker 3: My inlaws for Easter and had a little Easter egg hunt for them. They’re in their early seventies, but we, we did our best to stay six feet away. So it’s, you gotta be social and stay active, but do our best to stay on top of it. But it, you know, it’s, I’m sure most of us live in a community where you don’t, you don’t have direct effects by it. But, I have an investor who is a retired police officer in Detroit. He and his wife now work from a volunteer basis, to help recover organs for organ donation company. I mean, they’re loading bodies up day in, day out there. Yeah. I mean, I’ll send you some pictures of it. The morgues are full, the, see that the freezers are full. You know, I had a call with him and his wife the other day and he’s like, Mikey, mole believe this, but you know, my wife just loaded six bodies into the back of the van as we’re talking because they’re in our garage because there’s no other place to put them. And it’s still, it’s still cool here in Detroit. So it’s a reality check for a lot of us when you hear those stories of, of what’s what’s going on and a lot of different areas of the country outside of where we are.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And so we’ll, we’ll move on to just a second, but you know, there’s, I tell anybody that listens it’s like, there is a silent killer out there. I tell my kids, it’s the big, bad Wolf he’s outside the door. You know, he’s blown in. That’s why we can’t go to the pool. That’s why we can’t go to the gymnastics. That’s why we can’t go to Dan’s cause he’s out there and I’m not trying to scare him, but letting them know the reality of the situation, but it’s true. You know, that, that virus can linger anywhere for a long period of time. I just got to do is be the one that touches whatever with it on there. And next thing you know, you know, you’re the one that’s fighting it and it’s not pleasant. Those people die alone. Unfortunately. So anyways, all right, so let’s get off that subject, but I just want to reiterate the fact that you gotta stay safe, just stay safe.

Speaker 2: It’s not gonna be that much longer. You’re going to after this period, Massachusetts right now is going through the worst part, just like New York did last week. And I mean the number of cases is just skyrocketing, but they expected that for the next two weeks. and then it will, it will level off and we’ll start going down, but, and then it, it right now we stay safe and then we gotta be smart after this and being smart as protecting yourself, going forward until finally there’s a vaccine, which is next year. So anyways, let’s talk about your story. So let’s, let’s talk about the hope. Now we talked about the reality of the situation right now, but let’s talk about the hope and what’s going to happen after this and, and the opportunities out there. And let’s talk about your opportunity. So you came out of, so you went into a similar situation back in 2008, you know, there’s a big crash. and then you reinvented yourself. You came to the multifamily millions, a three day event and then tell your story. What happened after that

Speaker 3: Yeah, 2008 had hit, I was a real estate developer, doing projects in Southern California and New York for the most part, mostly residential, some office, some commercial, some retail. and then, I was newly married. we just, we had just had a baby and a 2008 hit. Right. And as you said, Lehman brothers failed. I remember the day and I’m pretty sure it was September 17th. I had a big construction development project, an office project in Hermosa beach, California in Southern California, outside of LA, that was supposed to start on December or October 1st, 2008 and everything shut down. Right. the banks went under, we lost financing and I was sitting on my hands trying to figure out what to do next. You know, lost a lot of money, lost a lot of sweat equity, you know, almost came down to not really starting from scratch.

Speaker 3: You know, all my retirement dollars were gone. Cause I had to put everything into the business. And to your point, David does remind me a lot of where we are now. This feels very different though, in a way, because what the positives of it are, they’re still equity out there. There’s still investors out there. A lot of people are still sitting in cash and they’re still dead out there. You could still get loans from the banks, very different from 2008. And now coming out of this, we’ll have some pretty strong fiscal tailwinds behind us. So I’m pretty excited about the opportunities coming out of this. Now, when that will be, I’m not sure. I don’t think any, anyone really knows that there’s not a single economist where I’ve seen a consistent, answer out of them. But whether it’s in three months, six months, nine months a year, it’s going to be a wonderful time to be buying an apartment.

Speaker 3: So I tell a lot of people, now’s the time to get your, you know, your head straight, mentally stay on top of your, your broker relationships. Really understand what’s selling. What’s not a lot of deals are falling out of contract right now. Why are they falling out Why are they not falling out Where are cap rates going That’s, that’s my greatest level interest looking, trying to look forward, you know, where our cap rates now versus wearable cap rates be in the fall. You know, they could be significantly higher. I think there’s going to be certainly some distress in the market. Especially if you have another apartment owner that has a partner that needs out or a machine, the, the bad, the mediocre to bad operators are going to be weeded out of the market. Yeah. The weekends are going to be weeded out of the market.

Speaker 3: And that’s where a lot of the opportunity is going to be a lot of see properties are really going to struggle because they’re going to go through some significant eviction delinquency issues. And if you’re not all over your stuff, deals are going to start going back to the bank. And you’re absolutely right. We’re going to start to see some really strong opportunities here in the future. So we all have to be ready and a locked and loaded. Yeah, absolutely. Have some dry powder on hand. Yeah. So talk about you, your first deal in apartments starting, starting new. Yeah. First deal. I went through Dave’s program early 2009. The recession was know we were deep in the recession. Maybe there was some recovery in certain markets and I was looking for a stable investment market and a stable opportunity in that time. And you know, that that time is going to be here again, we’re value add is going to be gone and we’re going to be looking for just smart, good performing apartments.

Speaker 3: And that, and that’s what I found. I found an opportunity in Texas, a Odessa, Texas, kind of a risky market. It’s very oil base, but the barrel had just tanked very similar to now. And I partnered up with another, another of Dave students to buy an 80 unit, product ADU. It’s a apartment building built in the eighties. It was 98% occupied. And we bought it from another seller that was in pain that was in distress from the recession. You know, someone else that had problems with development or condos and in different areas of the country, we’re able to get a phenomenal opportunity closed it in July. I think why I was still in your coaching program, Dave, and then a year later bought a 232 unit property right across the street. And then, you know, it really grew from there ever since 2009, 2010, I’ve been buying, you know, two to five, five deals a year on average.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And, I know you’re very particular on your deals, which is smart, conservative, good conservative investor. And I think you made the comment to me a breakfast when we were at ultimate partnering that, Hey, you know, I don’t buy a deal this year. That’s okay. I don’t need to do a deal. I just want to do good deals. Yeah.

Speaker 3: I always say, especially now, but all, you know, all the time, you know, you have to be very picky patient prudent. You said particular, about what you’re buying, especially when you have investors that you are responsible to. So finding the right deal at the right time and making sure that folks are going through, you know, you’re really the steps you give and you arm people with Dave, the underwriting template, you know, good, thorough, due diligence, having a coach, building the right team. I mean, those are all the right parts that help you make really good decisions when it comes to buying apartments. And if you make good decisions, you’re going to have some really happy investors, which is going to help. A lot of people get started fast coming out of this recession here.

Speaker 2: Yeah. You make good decisions on the front end. Then you have good nights sleeps on the back end. And during the deal, you don’t make good decisions on the front end. And then real estate can be a nightmare. Yeah. You know, you don’t do a deal because you want to do a deal. You do a deal because it’s a good deal. Basically. I think people get into the, you know, everybody wants to do a deal. They get excited. People get trained, you know, and they just can’t wait to get into that first deal. And sometimes they try to rationalize why a deal would work. And one of the things, especially when I was teaching, I would try to push into people’s heads is that you got to do your marketing. You get to create your relationships because if you don’t, you will, you will rationalize why a bad deal could be a good deal. And then you’ll get into a bad deal because of that rash, rationalize rationalization. But if you’ve got other deals that you’re negotiating and along the way, all the sellers you’re talking to, then you can have the attitude that some will some won’t. So what next that’s how you stay in good deals.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And I still say it, you know, any given week, you really only have the bandwidth to look at 10 deals and to really dig in on two or three deals. So to your point, you have to be comfortable saying, Hey, I’m going to pass on these other deals. Maybe they’re good. Maybe they’re bad. And you gotta be okay with that. Cause if you focus on all 10 deals, you just don’t get, you just don’t get anything done. You don’t get to dig in as deeply, as thoroughly as you really want to find that that golden nugget, that creates a great opportunity. So you’re forced to really determine the best two or three deals to focus on and seeing what you can get done.

Speaker 2: Since you said that, what are some of the most common things that you see that kick deals out Because one of the things you want to do is you want to kick a deal up. You want to, you don’t want to look for things that are wrong to not get into a deal, but you want to look for, for reasons that a deal doesn’t work so that you can go onto the next deal as soon as possible. So what are, so what are the most common things you’re seeing Why deals don’t work

Speaker 3: I would start with location. One of the first things I do other than quickly scanning the, the broker package or they the, Oh, what we call the OEM and the offering memorandum is to really look, is this the type of location we want to be in. And you know, and a lot of it comes to what, you know, Dave, you talk a lot on emerging markets, which, whether you’re at you’re in, what’s considered an emerging market or not, you want to be near where there’s jobs. I know when I started buying it, we’re going to go through it again here. Right. I wanted to be where there was jobs and job growth. Then in 2008, 2009, there wasn’t a lot of them. But at that point in time, the four, the five top job markets in the country were in Texas. So we started buying in Texas.

Speaker 3: But on top of it, when it comes to location, you know what what’s around you, is it, you know, pawn shops is there, is there a shopping center That’s half dark, we’re going to see more of those. Right. You know, I wanted to be in locations where you had a Starbucks, so you had a good grocery tenant grocery store in the area. Was there a park nearby Oh, there’s a school around the street. What’s the rating of that school. Let’s check the crime in that area. And if those, if that looked good, we would then take the next step. and dig a little deeper. You know, what’s the occupancy of the property. I’ve never been one to buy a lot of really heavily distressed properties. I’ve always bought, bought with Dave, what you call stabilized properties where occupancy is 85% or higher, you know, looking back at it.

Speaker 3: Gosh, I probably bought 25 30 deals since 2009. All of them have average 90% up in occupancy. And then if I liked the location, I liked the area I liked the overall market will understand. Hey, what’s really the story here. I like to buy properties that have a, you know, a story to it. do you have a motivated seller Is it off market are rents under market. Okay. Well, how far under market, the physical aspect of it is there heavy, deferred maintenance that can be a good thing or a bad thing. It might be so heavy. It’s not worth focusing on, but the deferred maintenance might spell a mismanagement issue or poor management issue. What else it would broker tells you, Hey, rents are under market. You have to confirm it, get your own rent, comps, understand the package, call around to the competitors. And then I think you also have to understand just cap rates and price per unit to really understand if you’re buying it right. But I think all of that in a nutshell, it takes a while to really under, yeah. You gotta look at a lot of deals to begin to understand what a good story is. You know, what smells like a deal. You know, it looks like a deal. And if that’s the case, that’s when we typically we’ll, we’ll dig in a little deeper and start to fire. Some offers out

Speaker 2: What’s your favorite value add, you know, what’s your favorite type of deal that when you see it’s like, yes,

Speaker 3: I think it’s a combination of everything I just said, right There’s a story where you have a motivated seller. I love the five properties that have owned by men owned by the same group for a long period of time. You know, they’ve owned it for 20 years, 30 years and maybe the property is 95% occupied. It has a good reputation, but it’s the longer people own properties. It becomes a little cash cow, right. It becomes a little bank and they tend to take their, their eye off the ball a bit. and they leave fruit for the rest of us. Right Yeah. You know, the, the ma the ma you walk into the model, it looks like something from, you know, 20 years old, you walk into the leasing center. They don’t have what today’s leasing center really is. You know, they don’t have a competitive asset, a competitive property.

Speaker 3: You know, the paint colors are horrendous. We love those stories because, you know, right in, you can go in, improve it, renovate it, maybe improve the tenant base. And, in re in, raise your rents. You know, we love being able to prove up that rents are under Mark. I do a lot of interior upgrades, usually where the interior upgrade averages, you know, eight to 12,000 a unit we’ll, we’ll go in, we’ll apply new countertops, new cabinet doors. So I love to be able to find the, the opportunity where it has a good reputation. I has a good area. It’s just tired. And

Speaker 2: So explain. So how did you get yourself up to that level of renovation Because typically, you know, you do, and anybody, when they’re starting, they should be doing anywhere from two to maybe 4,000 a door, you start getting above that and you got a hundred units and that rehab is going to be out of your control. So how did you step yourself up there to eight to 12

Speaker 3: It’s, you know, it took, it took time. It certainly wasn’t right off the bat. You know, initially we were just trying to find properties that didn’t need a lot of rehab. It just had a mismanagement story. And as the market got hot, right, that got harder and harder to find. And cap rates continue to get me when went right. When we were first, when we first met and I first started buying data, I was buying nine caps. and then it became eight caps and became seven caps, six calves. And, you know, suddenly you’re buying five caps and good locations. And, and to do that, you’ve gotta be able to add value. And that’s something that I learned a long time ago with anything in life, you have to be able to buy and add value, whether it’s to your relationships, to your partners, certainly to your real estate deals. What’s the, what’s the value add play. And it started smaller and slowly began to increase because we were able to learn in certain markets, if we could do this level of upgrade, we could get, you know, the difference from a $50 rent bump upward to a, you know, in some West coast markets, we’re getting a five or $700 rent bump by doing that level of, upgrade.

Speaker 2: You, did a deal in Seattle. I think it was 32 units. I’ll let you describe it a lot per door and you’re able to raise the rents a lot. Why don’t you just quickly describe that

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. That was, I think my first deal in a, in Seattle, I did it with a gentleman that I met at one of your seminars, Dave, I think, I think it was the S the sponsorship of them. And now we have five, five, six deals in Seattle. but that was a deal where if we did nothing, rents were $250 under market day one

Speaker 2: Because everybody, and that was just a couple of years ago. So, and back then everybody was saying that Seattle doesn’t cash flow.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Actively looking at in Seattle, but like anything and like you and your team teaches when you focus on a market, you really dig in, you really understand it. And you know, it extremely well, like a lot of people’s home markets, you can start to find these, these opportunities, especially when you find an opportunity that is owned by someone that owned it for a long time. And that’s exactly what this was. You had a tired owner that had just been managing it for cashflow in high occupancy and rents in Seattle. Like a lot of West coast markets. It just really took off, at some point post recession, you know, 2013, 14, 15, they just took off and some owners just didn’t understand where rents should be. And then on top of that, we went in and ran, invaded the units, and we added washer dryers. This was an area of Seattle that didn’t have a lot of renovated product. A lot of properties were older. They didn’t have a in unit washer dryers. So by doing that, instead of raising reds, 250, we took reds almost up $500 a month without, without losing our vacancy. We just sold that what’s that How many tenants did you lose None. Most of them stay,

Speaker 2: Wow. That’s, you know, you raise it to market and they look around and they realize, you know, I’m not going to get any cheaper. I mean,

Speaker 3: I knew that they were getting, they were getting a deal to begin with. And then when they saw the new product for the price, they started shopping in the area. And then they said, same thing. Gosh, I’m going to pay this much more anyway and get a unit that looks horrendous. Why not stay here And why not stay here with a group and an owner that, that, that cares about the community and is doing what they said they’re going to do. I think that’s a big part of it. Absolutely. But yeah, we just, we just sold, we just sold that property, in December, actually. Nice. That was a good one.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I bet. How much per door did you buy it for And how much did you sell it for

Speaker 3: I think we bought it for one 80 a door and sold it for around a two 60 a door

Speaker 2: And put 12 in max. That’s nice. That’s a nice, that’s a nice one.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. We just sold another deal in the, in Texas that I bought, we had almost 10 years. I bought not too long after I went through your program. Dave, you know, where the, the, the, the investor ROI was upwards of 50%, annualized. We’re also refinancing five properties right now. You know, some of them I bought in 2009, 2010, and we’re returning all the investors capital back plus a attractive return and holding onto it longterm. So through this recession, we’re actually returning $25 million back to investors. So we’ll be in a really good spot in a very liquid spot with us and our investors coming at, out of this recession here. That’s a good place to be. Yeah.

Speaker 2: I don’t want to keep you past your time, but, so we’ve got a few more minutes left. explain the mindsets that people need to transition into, or need to kind of have to get into multifamily investing for the people that are looking to get into their first deal and looking to get into that, that next level.

Speaker 3: You know, I think mindset is something that comes with practice and surrounding yourself with the right people, which is, you know, a big part of being involved with your family, your team, your network. I know a 2009, you know, I had done a lot of real estate before and had bought some homes and flipped some homes and done real estate development, blah, blah, blah. But what gives, gave me confidence coming out of the recession was really education. and I’m talking about your education, you know, education on why apartments perform well in good times. And in bad times, you know, I told one of my investors the other day and I said, Hey, we, we were built for this meeting right now, this recession, cause it’s going to be ugly and it’s going to be painful, but we bought apartments long time ago, knowing that traditionally we would do pretty well in the next downturn in the next cycle.

Speaker 3: and I love apartments cause it’s, so month a month from a financial standpoint that I really believe that this summer we’ll understand before a lot of other industries will understand where we’re the bottom is, right. Dave, you know, when, when low occupancies level off more and more where low economic occupancies level off where the delinquency problems we’re going to have over the next couple of months, which is going to be potentially pretty scary are going to level off. So we’ll know where the bottom is, where it levels off and have a pretty good feeling for where the bottom is and understand how to underwrite, analyze properties going forward. As we look into, you know, later 2020 and 2021, but, when it comes to mindset, you know, it’s about surrounding yourself with good people, staying positive and you know, educating yourself right now without over educating yourself, right I mean, you can watch the news all day long and come away with nothing, but, but, but a fear factor, but I’m talking about education with, by, learning how to underwrite and learning how to analyze, learning what markets you want to be in. And if you have that level of education, it gives you confidence on what to do when to do it, how to do it coming out of this recession in the next three to six months here.

Speaker 2: And you can certainly start practicing too. I mean, you can practice your underwriting. You can practice your relationship building with brokers because you know, they’re in a little bit of a lull as well. We happy to take your calls. As a matter of fact, a couple of calls ago, when I, when I started doing the Tuesdays with Dave, again, I mentioned that, you know, it’s a good time to contact brokers, had a couple of students call over a couple of the coaches and say, you know, he was right. You know, it was able to talk to brokers that I hadn’t, hadn’t been able to talk to you before. So this is, yeah, this is the time to sharpen the ax.

Speaker 3: Yeah. There’s no doubt about it. I mean, deals are just not being traded or not selling right now for the most part. There, there certainly are some, but you know, a lot of apartment listings are, are being taken off the market. A lot of deals that we’re under contracts are falling out so that you know, that a lot of ways, to your point, Dave, if you’re new to the business, it takes a lot of the fear out of it deals aren’t trading or not. It’s a good time to educate yourself, focus on relationships and understand what market you want to be in and just really become an expert at it. It doesn’t have to be looking at apartments. It could be understanding, you know, where the path of progress is, you know, where are your AA areas, B areas, C areas, war zone areas are so as deals start to hit the market.

Speaker 3: Again, you have your relationships in place and you know, where you want to strike a, you know, where you want to be and where you don’t want to be. Yeah, well, because the opportunity will be there. The education and the, and the Accenture sharpening now will be the difference between choosing land mines and gold mines, you know, going into the next buying opportunity, which is chill come faster than people think. But yeah. So that’s great information, Mike, I don’t want to keep you past the 30 minutes that I, that, it’s great seeing you, you two, get to talk more often. I know we text every once in a while, but we to talk more often and, good luck out there. Good luck. Let’s keep trading notes on what’s going on. You got it. Let me know if you need anything else and, glad you and the family are well and safe, Dave. Yeah, same. You know, as I told you, like your picture and your family right on my wall over there, I was like, that was the model family that I wanted.

Speaker 3: I remember what I remember used to tell people on stage when I first met Dave, I had one child, I just had my first child. and then the, I dunno, 10 years or whatever, I, now I have three kids and then I’m 30 pounds heavier. It looks like you’ve lost a few of those pounds though. I did. I did. I think I put a half of it back on over the last four weeks. Yeah. That’s very true. That’s very true. You know, I mean, it’s you look back at the last 10 years and a lot of the progress I made with apartments and a lot of the acquisitions. Yeah. It was coming out of a tough time, right I mean, it was ha had kids and changing diapers and trying to grow a business and that kind of hammered in the last recession.

Speaker 3: And, you know, I really just dug in and, to, to your point that it, my sacrifice, my weight, my race line to make it happen. But you know, three, three, three kids and 30 pounds later, you know, it was worth, worth every penny. And you know, a lot of it started with your, your education, Dave and your in your programs, but, I’ll take Guinea education and going out and doing it. And that’s the important thing. And that’s what you did. So congratulations to you. Stay safe, don’t touch any donuts, any gloves on, and we’ll see you next week.

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